Number of Dental Hygiene Schools in Canada BY PROVINCE?

I'd like to start a discussion about the number of Dental Hygiene Schools in Canada BY PROVINCE.....we obviously are seeing an over saturation of RDH's in the country and I want to get at the heart of it.....DO THE NUMBERS, so to speak to look at how many schools there are in each province and the number of graduates per province..... We may need to forward this information onto the appropriate associations to address the concerns of the Profession.

Alberta 1 school University of Alberta
Manitoba 1 school University of Manitoba
Nova Scotia 1 school Dalhousie University
New Brunswick 1 school Oulton College
Saskatchewan 1 school Saskatchewan Institute of Applied Arts & Technology

British Columbia 6 Schools Camosun College, College of New Caledonia, Vancouver Community College, Vancouver College of Dental Hygiene and Auxillaries, University of Fraser Valley, Vancouver Island University

Quebec 8 schools many.....

Ontario 34 schools WAY TOO MANY TO WRITE DOWN HERE.....

So......does ANYONE SEE THE PROBLEM WITH THIS Summary.....??

Please look at the number of schools and the corresponding graduates......what do you think this is going to do to our profession....?? What do you think this is going to do our the standards....?? If all you need is the MONEY TO GET IN and not necessarily THE MARKS or have to COMPETE with other 'smart' applicants....?? What do you think of the quality of education you will get....? considering the lack of EXPERIENCE of instructors in some of these private schools....??

30 year vet in Edmonton, Alberta said: I'd like to start a discussion about the number of Dental Hygiene Schools in Canada BY PROVINCE.....we obviously are seeing an over saturation of RDH's in the country and I want to get at the heart of it.....DO THE NUMBERS, so to speak to look at how many schools there are in each province and the number of graduates per province..... We may need to forward this information onto the appropriate associations to address the concerns of the Profession.

Alberta 1 school University of Alberta
Manitoba 1 school University of Manitoba
Nova Scotia 1 school Dalhousie University
New Brunswick 1 school Oulton College
Saskatchewan 1 school Saskatchewan Institute of Applied Arts & Technology

British Columbia 6 Schools Camosun College, College of New Caledonia, Vancouver Community College, Vancouver College of Dental Hygiene and Auxillaries, University of Fraser Valley, Vancouver Island University

Quebec 8 schools many.....

Ontario 34 schools WAY TOO MANY TO WRITE DOWN HERE.....

So......does ANYONE SEE THE PROBLEM WITH THIS Summary.....??

Please look at the number of schools and the corresponding graduates......what do you think this is going to do to our profession....?? What do you think this is going to do our the standards....?? If all you need is the MONEY TO GET IN and not necessarily THE MARKS or have to COMPETE with other 'smart' applicants....?? What do you think of the quality of education you will get....? considering the lack of EXPERIENCE of instructors in some of these private schools....??

If any of these numbers is not complete, please help me correct the totals..... my hope if for there to be transparency regarding the actual NUMBER of schools and GRADUATES coming out of these schools each year....

30 year vet in Edmonton, Alberta said: If any of these numbers is not complete, please help me correct the totals..... my hope if for there to be transparency regarding the actual NUMBER of schools and GRADUATES coming out of these schools each year....

Some more statistics to review on the Dental Hygiene Schools in Canada 'by province':

British Columbia 6 schools, 169 students

Alberta 1 school, 42 students

Saskatchewan 1 school 25 students

Manitoba 1 school, 25 students

Ontario 34 schools, 1113 students

Quebec 8 schools, 5 students

New Brunswick 1 school, 23 students

Nova Scotia 1 school, 44 students

I will further go through the percentages of students who passed the National Board Exams 'by province' and by school...... it's all interesting reading.....info for discussion and review....we ALL need to do something about the OVERSATURATION.......

30 year vet in Edmonton, Alberta said: Some more statistics to review on the Dental Hygiene Schools in Canada 'by province':

British Columbia 6 schools, 169 students

Alberta 1 school, 42 students

Saskatchewan 1 school 25 students

Manitoba 1 school, 25 students

Ontario 34 schools, 1113 students

Quebec 8 schools, 5 students

New Brunswick 1 school, 23 students

Nova Scotia 1 school, 44 students

I will further go through the percentages of students who passed the National Board Exams 'by province' and by school...... it's all interesting reading.....info for discussion and review....we ALL need to do something about the OVERSATURATION.......

I truly believe the profession needs to move towards degree only entry to practice. We as a profession should be pushing for more education not LESS?? For example professions like midwifery, physiotherapy, nursing all moved forward to degree only programs. Why has dental hygiene taking a step back and allowed 18month programs? This would not be tolerated in other professions.

kg in New Westminster, British Columbia said: I truly believe the profession needs to move towards degree only entry to practice. We as a profession should be pushing for more education not LESS?? For example professions like midwifery, physiotherapy, nursing all moved forward to degree only programs. Why has dental hygiene taking a step back and allowed 18month programs? This would not be tolerated in other professions.

Hi, Sorry to hear the same thing happening in Canada as it is in the U.S.A. The reasons, at least one is, Dr. pushing and getting more Hygiene programs. We have the ADHA in the USA, but they (at least I don't think ) help much with legislation to help us keep us employed = too many new and older and just licensed R.D.H.'s in the field. The pay rate in many areas is "negotiable, by what the Dr. wants to pay, and if you want ie-36 and hour and he has 25 other candidates resumes in the drawer, well....he's bound to find a "few" willing to get the position for 30.....).

Thank you both for your comments. I think we do need to present the facts, the numbers, as to what is going on in our profession. We also need to get to the facts as to who is setting up these schools, whether there is a conflict of interest inherent in that, and to understand the standards of education within these 'fast track schools'.
Lastly, we should be notifying our colleagues within our profession to voice our concerns. With the above numbers in Ontario, for example, being 1113 students being graduated per year, what is the Ontario Dental Hygienists doing about this....?

Thank you for encouraging colleagues to take an interest in these concerns.

30 year vet in Edmonton, Alberta said: If any of these numbers is not complete, please help me correct the totals..... my hope if for there to be transparency regarding the actual NUMBER of schools and GRADUATES coming out of these schools each year....

there is no enough schools of dental hygienist, all in ccnada is hard to get into, this canadian ask to much to immigrant, and close th edoor to all, specialy in dental profession

I'm not quite sure what you are saying...could you further explain...?

Folks in government and especially in the dental profession would just laugh at the prospect of requiring more years of education for entry to practice, leading to poorer access to care. The truth is that dental hygiene is neither important enough to society nor in depth enough with knowledge to justify a 4 year degree. The curriculum has barely enough material to justify the 3 years it currently takes to become a hygienist, and the stock of instructors in the DH schools are truly unqualified to be teaching 4th year level courses on par with most other kinds of 4 year programs. The 4th year of the bachelors program barely increases the clinical knowledge of hygienists as it is - it focuses more on preperation for entry to academics such as teaching, research - which is a very good thing, but nothing to do with private clinical practice.

The CDHA and provincial associations have lobbied the 4 year degree to entry to death, and all they accomplished was to drive the dentists and the regulatory bodies to dig in and open private schools. This confrontational approach was ill-advised, and definitely a dead horse to beat on heretofore.

I would really like to find new candidates to the DH associations whom would take a more conciliatory stance with the dentists to solve the wildly changing supply of newly trained hygienists. We will have to live with the existence of some private schools, and definitely have to live without the degree requirement. We may be able to boost entry standards on the board exam and the school accreditation process, which may help to limit the flood of poorly trained DHs that we have have seen recently (ie failing the boards). Further, the DH profession can gain status and recognition if it starts to produce quality research by new PhD hygienists as well. Too many of the degree recipients go into instructing and taking teaching degrees (masters) when they could instead be building hardcore dental science into the profession

Dentists lobbied for 10 years against independence RDH, citing that they do not have the education/skill sets required. Safety of public
is the concern. They wanted a bachelor's degree for minimum standards as an indpendent practitioner.

Now they will argue against a bachelor's degree to entry.
A lack of supply is a concern

Is this a dichotomy?

The surplus will drive the industry down for all.
Bachelor's is the best approach for the safety of the public.
At least dentists agree for the independents. Why not for the
non-independents?

It is apparently obvious, that you cant have your cake and eat it too.

nojobs in Toronto, Ontario said: Dentists lobbied for 10 years against independence RDH, citing that they do not have the education/skill sets required. Safety of public
is the concern. They wanted a bachelor's degree for minimum standards as an indpendent practitioner.

Now they will argue against a bachelor's degree to entry.
A lack of supply is a concern

Is this a dichotomy?

The surplus will drive the industry down for all.
Bachelor's is the best approach for the safety of the public.
At least dentists agree for the independents. Why not for the
non-independents?

It is apparently obvious, that you cant have your cake and eat it too.

Ontario dentists lobbied for 10 years independents in Ontario need a bachelor's, and there is no bachelor's degree program for dental hygiene in Ontario. Just wanted to point that out.

skkr????????
You said
"The CDHA and provincial associations have lobbied the 4 year degree to entry to death, and all they accomplished was to drive the dentists and the regulatory bodies to dig in and open private schools. This confrontational approach was ill-advised, and definitely a dead horse to beat on heretofore."

"I would really like to find new candidates to the DH associations whom would take a more conciliatory stance with the dentists to solve the wildly changing supply of newly trained hygienists."

"Further, the DH profession can gain status and recognition if it starts to produce quality research by new PhD hygienists as well."

So PhD hygienists should exist, but not bachelor's ???
Please elaborate on how a change in new candidates to the DH associations will solve the wildly changing problem.

Don't be silly. You sound VERY CONFUSED. I am NOT arguing against the bachelors program, only arguing that it should never be a requirement for entry to practice as the radicals in the CDHA have pushed for. The Bachelors as it RIGHT NOW is designed as prep for grad studies, including masters/PhD (as rare as such degrees are). The Bachelors is utterly useless for practical application in private practice. The material needed for clinical practice is well covered in the 3 years programs of the public schools, IMHO. So, yes, the Bachelors is necessary and good for entry to grad school, teaching and research, but silly as a requirement for ENTRY TO PRACTICE.

Future leaders in hygiene should be more collaborative with the dental associations. That's all. In the past they should have and could have worked with the dentists to solve the severe shortage problem, but chose to instead try to make it worse. One of my instructors was a president of the CDHA, and she had the gall to deny the existence of any shortage at all! Instead, they could have pushed alongside dentists for the existing public schools to tighten the programs and put out more new grads. They could have taken a more critical look at how some of the public schools capriciously kick out good hygiene students, whom would easily outperform any grad from a private school.

Now the best we can do is to push for better education standards from the private schools by lobbying to have the board exam made tougher and to tighten up the accreditation review process - just to get back to where we were 3 years ago. Even these things may be impossible to achieve, but still much easier to achieve than the 4 yr degree to entry to practice requirement.

skrrrrrr in Victoria, British Columbia said: Don't be silly. You sound VERY CONFUSED. I am NOT arguing against the bachelors program, only arguing that it should never be a requirement for entry to practice as the radicals in the CDHA have pushed for. The Bachelors as it RIGHT NOW is designed as prep for grad studies, including masters/PhD (as rare as such degrees are). The Bachelors is utterly useless for practical application in private practice. The material needed for clinical practice is well covered in the 3 years programs of the public schools, IMHO. So, yes, the Bachelors is necessary and good for entry to grad school, teaching and research, but silly as a requirement for ENTRY TO PRACTICE.

Oh yes, they should look at the Bachelors closer. RIGHT NOW it is
designed for prep grads, teaching and research. Perhaps they should re-design it so it is conducive to independent practice, including administrative, basic principles and care for the medically compromised patient such as the elderly and disabled.
A component of teaching a research should also be included.

skrrrrrr in Victoria, British Columbia said: Future leaders in hygiene should be more collaborative with the dental associations. That's all. In the past they should have and could have worked with the dentists to solve the severe shortage problem, but chose to instead try to make it worse. One of my instructors was a president of the CDHA, and she had the gall to deny the existence of any shortage at all! Instead, they could have pushed alongside dentists for the existing public schools to tighten the programs and put out more new grads. They could have taken a more critical look at how some of the public schools capriciously kick out good hygiene students, whom would easily outperform any grad from a private school.

Now the best we can do is to push for better education standards from the private schools by lobbying to have the board exam made tougher and to tighten up the accreditation review process - just to get back to where we were 3 years ago. Even these things may be impossible to achieve, but still much easier to achieve than the 4 yr degree to entry to practice requirement.

Oh yes, the board exam should be made tougher, because it we get
back to where we were 3 years ago...the problem will be solved.

Unfortunately, the problem "will not be solved" as you may hope. There are many issues here.

1. 34 schools in ontario pumping out 1132 grads PER YEAR....NO MORE DENTAL HYGIENE Schools should be opened PERIOD....and in fact, some of the 34, 13 to be exact are NOT ACCREDITED now...and should not be....and should be shut down.

2. Accreditation should be tightened up to protect the population from people who are not sufficiently trained as well. If you are wondering about the facts of this....just for example, 58% of private nonaccredited schools pass the DH Board Exams....that is NOT acceptable. I've got emails from some private schools that I was asking questions of telling me "don't worry about passing the board exam if you come to our school cause part of our third and fourth session of our program is DEVOTED TO HOW TO PASS THE BOARD EXAM".....So...it's clear that they are 'teaching to the exam' and not necessarily to the knowledge and understanding of the student. Teaching to an exam is NOT the answer to dealing with an 18 month fast track program that has ILL-PREPARED ITS STUDENTS FOR PRIVATE PRACTICE....If we had a "fast track dental school telling dental students that don't worry, we'll get you through the National Dental Board Exams even though you're in a short program, you'd hear an OUTCRY from the PUBLIC and the DENTAL ASSOCIATION.

3. Lastly, there should be an investigation into WHO has set up some of these private schools, if a conflict of interest exists---it IS INAPPRORIATE for Dentists to be owners in this way--- and an investigation into the actual qualifications of the educators of these private schools. I went to one site, where they indicate they have 5 instructors...none of their credentials are put after their names...NOTHING....and YET, some of these 'instructors' are "teaching" courses in physiology, anatomy...etc....For pete's sake, some of the instructors have only been 'out of hygiene for less than a year'...geesh!

We should have minimum standards for an educator, similar to the
DDS wanting Ontario independent dental hygienists to have a bachelor's.
I say all educators should have a master's degree, private or public.
Then most of the schools will be forced to shut down and the problem will be solved.

nojobs in Toronto, Ontario said: We should have minimum standards for an educator, similar to the
DDS wanting Ontario independent dental hygienists to have a bachelor's.
I say all educators should have a master's degree, private or public.
Then most of the schools will be forced to shut down and the problem will be solved.

I totally agree that they should, but it probably won't happen.

'30 year vet' - I don't think it is inappropriate at all for dentists to open a DH school. Heck, dentists invented the DH profession and continue to be instructors in DH programs.

In other professions the government has tighter control over who trains the folks to enter the profession. This was the case with DH until the shortage caused a need to change the system. The easy way out was for government-sanctioned regulatory agencies to allow the private schools. The hygiene associations made the decision to allow private schools much easier: they dug in and ignored the public's need for access to care. This made the dentists' position much more appealing since it would help solve the access to care problem.

Most other professions do not have such private schools training them (RN, MD, DDS, PEng, etc), but those professions' schools involve much more curriculum, training expertise and infrastructure to begin with. A DH school is merely a large dental practice with classrooms, and with instructors largely selected right out of private practice - thus not that difficult to set up. So nojobs' solution of requiring more education form instructors may help. Trouble is, there is indeed a lot of BSc of DH coming into the pool now from UBC and the USA, and that should boost the private schools soon enough. Many of these quickly pick up a Masters in Ed shortly after, as was the case with all of my DH school instructors.

Well, if there is little hope for the saturation in Ontario, and
the surplus continues to rise then the insurance companies may get on board and only allow limited periodontal scalings in a GP dental practice and allow scaling in an independent RDH practice, or under the ODHA fee guide.

I say this because Ford has only allocated 1 unit per 9 months of scaling, with the additional units in a perio office. This could
be considered a deterrent for some, yet benefiting the insurance company's bottom line. The ODHA fee guide is lower than the ODA..and business is business. For insurance companies to make
it slightly inconvenient for perio patients to have to go to two
providers, they will ultimately win. Also, with the rise in
the baby boomers, perio care will become more expensive as insurance companies will be cracking down on pre-determination
requirements.

What could happen as a result is an increase in retiring dentists owning independent dental hygiene practices, therefore cutting the throat of the new dentists on the block.
This surplus will be used to everyone and anyone's advantage.
It will remain to be seen as to whom ultimately gets the short
end of the stick. For now, it is the RDH who suffers the most.

nojobs in Toronto, Ontario said: Well, if there is little hope for the saturation in Ontario, and
the surplus continues to rise then the insurance companies may get on board and only allow limited periodontal scalings in a GP dental practice and allow scaling in an independent RDH practice, or under the ODHA fee guide.

I say this because Ford has only allocated 1 unit per 9 months of scaling, with the additional units in a perio office. This could
be considered a deterrent for some, yet benefiting the insurance company's bottom line. The ODHA fee guide is lower than the ODA..and business is business. For insurance companies to make
it slightly inconvenient for perio patients to have to go to two
providers, they will ultimately win. Also, with the rise in
the baby boomers, perio care will become more expensive as insurance companies will be cracking down on pre-determination
requirements.

What could happen as a result is an increase in retiring dentists owning independent dental hygiene practices, therefore cutting the throat of the new dentists on the block.
This surplus will be used to everyone and anyone's advantage.
It will remain to be seen as to whom ultimately gets the short
end of the stick. For now, it is the RDH who suffers the most.

Hi Nojobs,

Can you explain something to me....? Are you saying that the Ontario DHA's fee guide for a unit of scaling is less than a unit of scaling done in a dental office with the ODA's fee guide....? Can you tell me what the amounts/difference is.....? This would ultimately encourage patients to go to an independent practicing DH clinic than to a dental office using the ODA's fee guide....??

nojobs in Toronto, Ontario said: Well, if there is little hope for the saturation in Ontario, and
the surplus continues to rise then the insurance companies may get on board and only allow limited periodontal scalings in a GP dental practice and allow scaling in an independent RDH practice, or under the ODHA fee guide.

I say this because Ford has only allocated 1 unit per 9 months of scaling, with the additional units in a perio office. This could
be considered a deterrent for some, yet benefiting the insurance company's bottom line.

egads?! 1 unit? You mean they will only pay for 15 minutes of scaling every 9 months at a GPs office? That sounds insane, and a strange kind of discrimination. Many GPs also 'specialize' in periodontal surgery and maintenance and are very well qualified to maintain perio cases. Same goes for many hygienists whom have worked in perio offices - why can't they sclae and rootplane just as well in a GP's office? Besides all that, GPs are trained to understand and treat perio disease - not the insurance refuses to pay them to do their jobs? Seems very unfair to everyone except the periodontists.

Keep in mind that in Victoria, there are so few periodontists that a patient may have to wait up to 2 months to be seen! In more remote areas, the nearest periodontist is a hundred miles away or more. It is lucky that my wife's classmate (my wife is a GP) is a periodontist, and we can get folks in fairly quick - but he has the professional fortitude to refer them back to us for most perio maintenance. If it is as you say that Ford wouldn't pay - I find it ridiculous, almost criminal.

30 year vet in Edmonton, Alberta said: Hi Nojobs,

Can you explain something to me....? Are you saying that the Ontario DHA's fee guide for a unit of scaling is less than a unit of scaling done in a dental office with the ODA's fee guide....? Can you tell me what the amounts/difference is.....? This would ultimately encourage patients to go to an independent practicing DH clinic than to a dental office using the ODA's fee guide....??

Hi 30yr vet. The difference is approx 7.00 less per unit for scaling. The initial exam, recalls and prophy are also less.
From talking to a few independents, the word is still getting out
about the cheaper fee guide. It is not necessary an incentive though, because of the different providers and inconvenience, time and gas etc. Most are saying, what do I care? I am covered anyways. It is also relatively easy to get an appointment with the DDS as there is no shortage in the GTA area.

skrrrrrr in Victoria, British Columbia said: egads?! 1 unit? You mean they will only pay for 15 minutes of scaling every 9 months at a GPs office? That sounds insane, and a strange kind of discrimination. Many GPs also 'specialize' in periodontal surgery and maintenance and are very well qualified to maintain perio cases. Same goes for many hygienists whom have worked in perio offices - why can't they sclae and rootplane just as well in a GP's office? Besides all that, GPs are trained to understand and treat perio disease - not the insurance refuses to pay them to do their jobs? Seems very unfair to everyone except the periodontists.

Keep in mind that in Victoria, there are so few periodontists that a patient may have to wait up to 2 months to be seen! In more remote areas, the nearest periodontist is a hundred miles away or more. It is lucky that my wife's classmate (my wife is a GP) is a periodontist, and we can get folks in fairly quick - but he has the professional fortitude to refer them back to us for most perio maintenance. If it is as you say that Ford wouldn't pay - I find it ridiculous, almost criminal.

Many dentists out here talk about having an in-house periodontist
associate, because then the Ford scaling units will be covered.
Also, the dds out here just write-off the additional units, (some of them) in order to keep the clients. Most are seen at nine month intervals, if they want/need more scaling they will alternate
with a perio office.

The DDS and insurance companies will always butt heads, but just think of what dentistry would be like in Canada if insurance didn't
exist. Dentists are very fortunate to have this. But it is just my opinion that insurance companies will take use the surplus of
hygienists and the ODHA fee guide to their advantage in the future.

nojobs in Toronto, Ontario said: Many dentists out here talk about having an in-house periodontist
associate, because then the Ford scaling units will be covered.
Also, the dds out here just write-off the additional units, (some of them) in order to keep the clients. Most are seen at nine month intervals, if they want/need more scaling they will alternate
with a perio office.

The DDS and insurance companies will always butt heads, but just think of what dentistry would be like in Canada if insurance didn't
exist. Dentists are very fortunate to have this. But it is just my opinion that insurance companies will take use the surplus of
hygienists and the ODHA fee guide to their advantage in the future.

Very interesting.....it will be what it will be I guess...we'll have to wait and see what Insurers do....and also what patients will do.

Today, we had 5 Dental Hygienists bring their resumes into our office for a job....we have NO job listed anywhere. Our receptionist came into my operatory and said, what the heck is going on...? where are all these DH coming from?? We looked at the resumes....all from ontario....oh brother.....I told her to give them back to them and just tell them we are NOT HIRING right now....

but good grief...the future of my profession.... :(

30 year vet in Edmonton, Alberta said: Very interesting.....it will be what it will be I guess...we'll have to wait and see what Insurers do....and also what patients will do.

Today, we had 5 Dental Hygienists bring their resumes into our office for a job....we have NO job listed anywhere. Our receptionist came into my operatory and said, what the heck is going on...? where are all these DH coming from?? We looked at the resumes....all from ontario....oh brother.....I told her to give them back to them and just tell them we are NOT HIRING right now....

but good grief...the future of my profession.... :(

Frustrating for the new grads and the working hygienists as well.
I can see the independent dental hygienists eventually contacting
the insurance companies themselves, putting together some sort of
proposal that will give both insurance companies and corporations
incentives for wanting to utilize their services. The experienced
hygienists would probably rather work on something like this, than
settle for an employer DDS who wants to pay low and jerk them around. If you cant beat them one way, they will beat them another. Think of one giant and colony of ants. Did you know that
a large colony of ants can kill a human being?
The surplus may not be as welcomed as they hope. And we are just
strength in numbers in Ontario, that will most likely grow to other provinces.

nojobs in Toronto, Ontario said: Frustrating for the new grads and the working hygienists as well.
I can see the independent dental hygienists eventually contacting
the insurance companies themselves, putting together some sort of
proposal that will give both insurance companies and corporations
incentives for wanting to utilize their services. The experienced
hygienists would probably rather work on something like this, than
settle for an employer DDS who wants to pay low and jerk them around. If you cant beat them one way, they will beat them another. Think of one giant and colony of ants. Did you know that
a large colony of ants can kill a human being?
The surplus may not be as welcomed as they hope. And we are just
strength in numbers in Ontario, that will most likely grow to other provinces.

Apparently, the dentist from Burnaby on this Forum is suggesting there will be ads coming out to discourage the public from receiving treatment from independent DH providers. "He suggests there is more than one way to shut these down...... "

I read this, and what he fails to realize is that dentists
are currently conditioning patients to accept dental hygiene
care without an exam when they are on 3 mth perio intervals.
In Ontario, there is an order required (for non self-initiated)
and the dentist doesn't have to present at all in the office.
No matter what the Associations do to discourage the public,
the average "joe" patient is smarter than that.
"The hygienist does all the work, the dentist only pops in
for 2 minutes to check" is an all too common phrase heard
by patients.
As the private schools increase dental hygiene grads, there will
be a greater chance of independents out there. Mainly because
most of them can't find a job, or refuse to work for low wages.

So it is a question of
"is the more (rdh) the merrier?"
or will it..
"bite the hand that feeds them?"

Don't forget that the insurance company will ultimately have the
final say, and if there is a large percentage of independents out
there, then the insurance companies will notice regardless of what
the associations say.

I always learn something when I read other's points of view. I have thought about insurance companies before also and how many times they are charged for exams that don't happen. Patients are prepared to either not see the dr or just have him throw the mirror in there and say they're ok in 30 seconds or less.
I don't know much about independent practice, but I cannot imagine any of the dds I have worked for letting that revenue get out of their hands. Hygiene wages are already going down and I think it's going to get worse until we either quit the profession or go out on our own. We won't have a choice.

Dental hygiene wages are still too high, but it will get to into normal rate quite soon.

Dentist in Burnaby, British Columbia said: Dental hygiene wages are still too high, but it will get to into normal rate quite soon.

But you will continue to make more profit, since costs go up and you will pay your R.D.H. less for her expertise. What do you consider Normal rate? How much do you increase the bill to the patients each year? So you will be getting the R.D.H's (pay reduction for her/him and keep it for yourself)? Do you provide your R.D.H.'s with any medical, cont. ed, benefits???? Will your other office personnel: O. Mgr. and D.A. ALSO....have their pay reduced...it seems only fair....R.D.H's education , and LICENSING seem to be worth their pay...so only fair to CUT pay to ALL YOUR EMPLOYEES?

Dentist in Burnaby, British Columbia said: Dental hygiene wages are still too high, but it will get to into normal rate quite soon.

What is a normal rate for you? You obviously have some resentment regarding this issue, as your posts are making clear. Can I ask you why or what is going on inside your head or practice with regards to this issue....?

Hi Edmonton, Dr. in Burnaby? We would like answers to the questions asked above ...please be civil in your responses.

Hi Exp,

I hadn't read your question...but we were on the same wave length when we wrote that!

Yes.....I'd like some answers as well.

30 year vet in Edmonton, Alberta said: What is a normal rate for you? You obviously have some resentment regarding this issue, as your posts are making clear. Can I ask you why or what is going on inside your head or practice with regards to this issue....?

It is my understanding that the rule of thumb for hygiene salaries is that they should be in the order of 30% of production. If you are proposing a $20-25 range for hygiene salaries are you also proposing a corresponding reduction in the fees charged for our services? I doubt it. Since an RDH is REQUIRED to pay annual dues to the professional Colleges malpractice insurance and attend continuing education programs to maintain their competency if you are proposing a sharp reduction in salaries will you (the employer) pay for licensing fees, malpractice insurance and con ed? If wages were that low then offices would have to offer full benefits, including pensions and I don't ever see that happening in small dental offices

I am self-employed, I own my own instruments, ultrasonic scaler, loupes and headlight - on a wage of $20 this would not be possible - I would barely be putting food on the table. I would not be able to house and support my family - put my children through university, save for retirement etc.

Why is it that any profession predominantly staffed by women is always attacked by men who think we work for pocket money. In this day and age more and more women are the sole income for families. Just because a dentist "owns" a practice it doesn't mean that only he should be rewarded for the work that goes into making it a successful business. In the corporate world it seems that there is a better understanding of the part that everyone plays in the success of the business and people are remunerated accordingly.

Dentist in Burnaby, British Columbia said: Around 20-25$/hr I believe is a reasonable rate for what you do.

Dr. B., Please, answer the questions I posed above, as we: R.D.H.'s, would like to hear your responses to all our question.

Dentist in Burnaby, British Columbia said: Around 20-25$/hr I believe is a reasonable rate for what you do.

If this is the case (in Ontario) then there will be
A) Hygiene schools shutting down, due to the 35,000 tuition.
B) Independents, massive increase
C) Insurance companies on board with the hygienists, they may even
go as far as educating/advertising to the public about independents. They have far more clout than the dentists. Dentists
are meager ants to the insurance companies.

Doc, all I can say is:
CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR.

no jobs in Toronto, Ontario said: If this is the case (in Ontario) then there will be
A) Hygiene schools shutting down, due to the 35,000 tuition.
B) Independents, massive increase
C) Insurance companies on board with the hygienists, they may even
go as far as educating/advertising to the public about independents. They have far more clout than the dentists. Dentists
are meager ants to the insurance companies.

Doc, all I can say is:
CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR.

No Jobs, You are so right! Why don't those reading this site understand the "Oversaturation" that we are experiencing! HELLO.....we in the field are speaking from EXPERIENCE...but if you really want to shell out 30-40,000 for your training be ready for the unemployment line. How will you pay back loans when you training was all for NOT???

Re: $20-25/hr hygienists. Folks, keep in mind where the Doc works - Burnaby BC. I also work in BC, and my wife is a doc with 2 practices. The Hygiene billing fees are extremely low in BC (half of what they are in AB, QC), so independent hygienists have no real chance to do as well as those employed by docs unless wages fall below $30/hr. The Doc in Burnaby works in the Vancouver area, which is a very TOUGH market for dentists to run their business - because the area is supersaturated with too many dentists. (We wanted to stay in Van, my wife grew up in Burnaby, but the market and doctor wages were too low compared to Vic and the rest of BC.) In The Vancouver area, I don't think the doc is out of line suggesting that hygienists should reasonably earn $20-25/hr, because even many doctors struggle to make as much as some overpaid hygienists! Just like the doctors, the hygienists should have the fortitude to move to under-served areas of the province where both doctors and hygienists can earn much more, with less competition.

Then there is the fact that hygienists in general do less intense work than assistants or front desk staff ... (BTW I am a hygienist, and the job is the easiest one I've ever had, and I've had many.)

no jobs in Toronto, Ontario said: If this is the case (in Ontario) then there will be
A) Hygiene schools shutting down, due to the 35,000 tuition.
B) Independents, massive increase
C) Insurance companies on board with the hygienists, they may even
go as far as educating/advertising to the public about independents. They have far more clout than the dentists. Dentists
are meager ants to the insurance companies.

Doc, all I can say is:
CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR.

Insurance companies are tickled pink in BC. They have to pay meager amounts for hygiene billings already. The average hygienist only produces about $80/hr in BC, yet her wage is typically over $40/hr - with the added overhead the doc doesn't even break even on having a hygiene dept. 'overstauration' of hygienists and lower wages will not change that situation, except perhaps to return the hygiene dept to modest profitability - hygienists have been sucking the practices' profits down considerably compared to the 70s and 80s. I personally know of hygienists earning over $100K/yr, while I know docs making less than that.

skrrrrrr in Victoria, British Columbia said: Insurance companies are tickled pink in BC. They have to pay meager amounts for hygiene billings already. The average hygienist only produces about $80/hr in BC, yet her wage is typically over $40/hr - with the added overhead the doc doesn't even break even on having a hygiene dept. 'overstauration' of hygienists and lower wages will not change that situation, except perhaps to return the hygiene dept to modest profitability - hygienists have been sucking the practices' profits down considerably compared to the 70s and 80s. I personally know of hygienists earning over $100K/yr, while I know docs making less than that.

Well.....this is an education....If DH only bill out $80.00 per hour....I can see where Burnaby DDS is coming from. In ALberta, the average DH bills out $200.00 per hour....so a higher wage is still within the percentage.....

30 year vet in Edmonton, Alberta said: Well.....this is an education....If DH only bill out $80.00 per hour....I can see where Burnaby DDS is coming from. In ALberta, the average DH bills out $200.00 per hour....so a higher wage is still within the percentage.....

An ambitious hygienist can bill up to about a max of $160, with liberal abuse of the 'scaling' billings, and if each patient needs rads and accepts polish ... but throw in a no-show or two, and half or more won't need rads ... $80 is very accurate for a real world average, imho.

But it is a more complicated than it seems. The BCDA itself has manipulated the hygiene wages to be low .. ever since the hygienists achieved the ability to open their own clinics over a decade ago. The effect is that hygiene becomes a 'loss leader' to bring in more patients ('increase access to care' - haha) who will then buy more higher-priced billings. So I see dirt on the hands of the dentists, and we surely can't blame the hygienists for the low hygiene fees. IMHO, the BCDA is just stupid to do this - it hurts their own more than anyone, probably did little to improve access to care, and did not stop the rise in hygienists wages one iota. Still, so few indy hyg clinics ...

skrrrrrr in Victoria, British Columbia said: An ambitious hygienist can bill up to about a max of $160, with liberal abuse of the 'scaling' billings, and if each patient needs rads and accepts polish ... but throw in a no-show or two, and half or more won't need rads ... $80 is very accurate for a real world average, imho.

But it is a more complicated than it seems. The BCDA itself has manipulated the hygiene wages to be low .. ever since the hygienists achieved the ability to open their own clinics over a decade ago. The effect is that hygiene becomes a 'loss leader' to bring in more patients ('increase access to care' - haha) who will then buy more higher-priced billings. So I see dirt on the hands of the dentists, and we surely can't blame the hygienists for the low hygiene fees. IMHO, the BCDA is just stupid to do this - it hurts their own more than anyone, probably did little to improve access to care, and did not stop the rise in hygienists wages one iota. Still, so few indy hyg clinics ...

Absolutely agree with you. As you know, I did state "ontario"
but it is all relative with what you bill. I dont think the hygienists are underpaid in BC. Although, if you throw a few
scaling/perio modules, a good hygienist will be able to earn her
keep. You guys can have the leftover saturated hygienists from
Ontario, our wage/billing ratio is not justified. Who knows, I wouldn't be surprised if more private schools shut down here and
re-locate to BC.

Also, keep in mind that not only Ontario grads move to other provinces. Many students from other provinces come here and then
return back to their provinces/home for work.

skrrrrrr in Victoria, British Columbia said: The BCDA itself has manipulated the hygiene wages to be low .. ever since the hygienists achieved the ability to open their own clinics over a decade ago. .

oops - I mis-typed that. I meant 'The BCDA has manipulated the hygiene FEES to be low ...' The wages have floated with the supply/demand of hygienists, which means the wages are high for now but set to fall.

skrrrrrr in Victoria, British Columbia said: Re: $20-25/hr hygienists. Folks, keep in mind where the Doc works - Burnaby BC. I also work in BC, and my wife is a doc with 2 practices. The Hygiene billing fees are extremely low in BC (half of what they are in AB, QC), so independent hygienists have no real chance to do as well as those employed by docs unless wages fall below $30/hr. The Doc in Burnaby works in the Vancouver area, which is a very TOUGH market for dentists to run their business - because the area is supersaturated with too many dentists. (We wanted to stay in Van, my wife grew up in Burnaby, but the market and doctor wages were too low compared to Vic and the rest of BC.) In The Vancouver area, I don't think the doc is out of line suggesting that hygienists should reasonably earn $20-25/hr, because even many doctors struggle to make as much as some overpaid hygienists! Just like the doctors, the hygienists should have the fortitude to move to under-served areas of the province where both doctors and hygienists can earn much more, with less competition.

Then there is the fact that hygienists in general do less intense work than assistants or front desk staff ... (BTW I am a hygienist, and the job is the easiest one I've ever had, and I've had many.)

I do NOT agree with your last sentence....you must be working in a very "clean office as far as pt.'s are concerned...and the perio's must be very easy????" Many offices EXPECT alot more (than maybe the Dr. you work for) from their R.D.H.'s Does you office need more R.D.H.'s? I'm sure many many would love to work their too....

Whats with the numbers? Indeed dates/times are out of sync.

exp in Massachusetts said: I do NOT agree with your last sentence....you must be working in a very "clean office as far as pt.'s are concerned...and the perio's must be very easy????" Many offices EXPECT alot more (than maybe the Dr. you work for) from their R.D.H.'s Does you office need more R.D.H.'s? I'm sure many many would love to work their too....

perio is referred out to the periodontist. We have 2 practices, and yes the established practice is easy cleaning since the patients are well cared for and dutifully doing self care. The new practice gets a lot of patients (over a 100 new patients a month) who have been neglected (not seen a hyg in 2-10 yrs), so those cases are more intense and we typically spend 2 hours with them to start. The key is that we have the office carefully systematized such that we can work efficiently and thus more relaxed .. and of course refer out those deep pockets. Our periodontist is conscientious enough to refer them back to us once perio is controlled.

I should also mention that hygiene is billed VERY DIFFERNTLY than in the USA. There is MUCH less pressure to pump out cleanings here because we do not have a flat rate system like in the US. There is not pressure to 'sell S/RP' nor to do all cleanings in 45 minutes ... because we bill it ALL based on time and specific procedures (polishing, fluoride, desensitization, etc). Scaling and root planing are treated the same by billings, and most plans simply cover whatever time it takes - there is no threshold differentiating gingivitis cases and periodontitis cases as far as ins in concerned. So, yes, hygienists have much less pressure and less intense work than assistants, front desk, restaurant servers, factory workers, dentists, you name it! During the shortage, they had to be put on a pedestal and given many favours - much to the resentment of their workmates. In many cases they have earned their 'primadonna' moniker.

skrrrrrr in Victoria, British Columbia said: I should also mention that hygiene is billed VERY DIFFERNTLY than in the USA. There is MUCH less pressure to pump out cleanings here because we do not have a flat rate system like in the US. There is not pressure to 'sell S/RP' nor to do all cleanings in 45 minutes ... because we bill it ALL based on time and specific procedures (polishing, fluoride, desensitization, etc). Scaling and root planing are treated the same by billings, and most plans simply cover whatever time it takes - there is no threshold differentiating gingivitis cases and periodontitis cases as far as ins in concerned. So, yes, hygienists have much less pressure and less intense work than assistants, front desk, restaurant servers, factory workers, dentists, you name it! During the shortage, they had to be put on a pedestal and given many favours - much to the resentment of their workmates. In many cases they have earned their 'primadonna' moniker.

Not entirely true. Many offices have on their charts units per year allowances for perio. There is still a large requirement on
the hygienist parts to point out needed restorative work, whitening, atridox, invisalign, crown, bridges, implants, desensitizing etc. There are dentists who track down hygienists
average hourly billing and will call the hygienist in and point it out. Some offices even have hygienists fill out production sheets
at the end of the day. Many have morning huddles, stating that
hygienists need to follow up or educate the clients coming in on
various restorative and cosmetic needs. AKA, chart reviews.
All this is "centered" around the hygienists. That is huge pressure, and it is happening all over Canada.